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Thread: Large Rifle vs. Small rifle primers???

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    Default Large Rifle vs. Small rifle primers???

    Jester probably knows the answer to this. For example, the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed with a large rifle primer pocket, but now, brass makers like Lapua are making 6.5 Creedmoor brass with small rifle primer pockets. Well, does the primer matter to the rifle??? Meaning if the rifle is chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor, does it matter if the primer is large or small rifle primer in relation to the functioning of the rifle not performance of the cartridge. After all, it is a center fire and the center of the brass is in the same place for both large and small primers, so the rifle itself should shoot the same. Is that correct??? Or does it require a whole different rifle to shoot the same 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge with a small rifle primer??? Was just thinking about it.
    Last edited by Skeeter22; 11-27-2018 at 06:55 AM.

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    I don’t think it would matter. I wonder why they want a small rifle primer in a 6.5. Even the 243 uses a large rifle primer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScLowCountry View Post
    I don’t think it would matter. I wonder why they want a small rifle primer in a 6.5. Even the 243 uses a large rifle primer?
    The claim is that the small rifle primer and smaller flash hole associated with it is more consistent and provides a higher degree of accuracy through consistency. I just have not found anything that says both pieces of brass work in the same rifle. Again, was just curious if anyone knew.

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    .45 ACP comes in both small and large pistol primers. It is not going to make a difference with the rifle. I think that you may have to make some adjustments to your powder charge.

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    The small primer vs the large rifle primer has nothing to do with the cartridge suitability in the fire arm. There is no difference to the firearm or the shooter.
    There is a difference in in the load performance, large rifle and small rifle primer cannot be substituted with the same loading data and expect the same results. An over pressure situation could occur so you will have to work up a load for the larger and smaller primers to be safe and ensure the performance you are expecting.
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    you will also find them in .308 Palma cases, 6.8SPC, 6 & 6.5 Creedmoor , and I think they are now available in .260. I got some Starline cases free from the Starline Rep to neck down to .260 and try at the Rifle Expo....haven't had a chance. I think Lapua and Peterson Cartridge Co already make them in .260 small primer. I understand that there is a stronger more consistent ignition.

    Skeeter22 the rifle don't care if it hit a small or large primer
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    6.5 Grendel comes in both large and small primers as well but I've found the small primer pockets to be more durable for reloading than the large primer pockets. Especially near the upper limits in pressure. No difference in performance on the range however, IMHO.
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    Thanks Bill, I forgot about the longevity advantage of the brass with the thicker web.

    What ranges have you tested at checking for differences? How much of a change in charge do you see between the two?
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    I had pressure signs with large primer PPU brass at 26gr of 8208 XBR so I didn't compare the two with the same loads. My testing was at 100 yards. My Hornady brass (small primer pocket) loaded with 26 gr under a 123gr SST or A-Max holds up well so far in primer pocket consistency and especially in case stretch which is negligible at worst. But I set my shoulders back minimally. My chamber throat design is a Lothar Walther CSS.

    I'll have to look up what primers I was using.
    Formerly Bill SC Hunter from the SCDNR Forums

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    I think the 6x47 and 6.5x47 Lapua brass also use small primers. Like Skeeter mentioned, more consistent pressure and can load slightly hotter without over pressure is the reason
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    The small primer vs the large rifle primer has nothing to do with the cartridge suitability in the fire arm. There is no difference to the firearm or the shooter.
    There is a difference in in the load performance, large rifle and small rifle primer cannot be substituted with the same loading data and expect the same results. An over pressure situation could occur so you will have to work up a load for the larger and smaller primers to be safe and ensure the performance you are expecting.
    I figured as much, but I didn't see it in writing anywhere. Always best to ask around for data that is hard to find.

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    Two main advantages to the small primer in cartridges that offer both:

    Better chance at single digit extreme spreads in muzzle velocity. This impacts long range accuracy.

    Better chance at 10+ reloadings of the cartridge case, because (if loading hot), less chance of expanding the primer pocket to the point if unusability.
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilDrummerBoy View Post
    Two main advantages to the small primer in cartridges that offer both:

    Better chance at single digit extreme spreads in muzzle velocity. This impacts long range accuracy.

    Better chance at 10+ reloadings of the cartridge case, because (if loading hot), less chance of expanding the primer pocket to the point if unusability.
    Thanks. I found some of that information while researching. I have reloaded for a good while now, but I never bothered with any calibers with small primers. All of it has primarily been large rifles and magnums. I'm considering a 6.5 Creedmoor down the road, and apparently, the 6.5 Creedmoor has brass that can be ordered that utilizes one or the other. Starline has small and large rifles primers for the 6.5, but Starline small rifles primer pockets still have the same size flash hole as the large primer pockets. Lapua brass has the small primer and smaller flash hole. Hmmm. If I get the rifle later on, it will be fun testing out both to see if there is any measureable difference worth bothering with in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter22 View Post
    Thanks. I found some of that information while researching. I have reloaded for a good while now, but I never bothered with any calibers with small primers. All of it has primarily been large rifles and magnums. I'm considering a 6.5 Creedmoor down the road, and apparently, the 6.5 Creedmoor has brass that can be ordered that utilizes one or the other. Starline has small and large rifles primers for the 6.5, but Starline small rifles primer pockets still have the same size flash hole as the large primer pockets. Lapua brass has the small primer and smaller flash hole. Hmmm. If I get the rifle later on, it will be fun testing out both to see if there is any measureable difference worth bothering with in the first place.
    For precision projects, I don't even consider cartridges for which Lapua brass is not available. It is that good, and that much better than most other stuff.
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilDrummerBoy View Post
    For precision projects, I don't even consider cartridges for which Lapua brass is not available. It is that good, and that much better than most other stuff.
    Good thing Federal Gold Match Primers are available again . They were "out of stock" for a long time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter22 View Post
    Good thing Federal Gold Match Primers are available again . They were "out of stock" for a long time!
    In the long absence, I learned that the CCI BR primers are an acceptable substitute.
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilDrummerBoy View Post
    In the long absence, I learned that the CCI BR primers are an acceptable substitute.
    You are correct. I used CCI BR2's until I could get GM's. However, I didn't have much of a choice on magnums because CCI 250's did not work for me at all. Switched to WLRM's and everything...meaning everything shot better. What worked for me may or may not work for another person in that situation, though. From my research, the WLRM's are supposedly "hotter" than the CCI 250's. In any event, the WLRM's worked until I could get GM215's. Now, I'm after another magnum rifle later on as well.
    Last edited by Skeeter22; 12-17-2018 at 02:08 PM.

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    I always strive for single digit standard deviation (SD) I think it might be rather hard to get single digit extreme spreeds (ES). Although both contribute very much to accuracy they do not have to be single digit to be accurate.

    I think the only GMM primer that was hard to get was 215M...i never had trouble getting 210M or maybe my supply was so strong I was able to wait it out...can't remember. Winchester LRM work very ver well in .300 Win Mag loads I use....better in fact than 215M

    I'm not so snobbish that i only shoot Lapua brass
    Yippee Ki Yay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester896 View Post
    I always strive for single digit standard deviation (SD) I think it might be rather hard to get single digit extreme spreeds (ES). Although both contribute very much to accuracy they do not have to be single digit to be accurate.

    I think the only GMM primer that was hard to get was 215M...i never had trouble getting 210M or maybe my supply was so strong I was able to wait it out...can't remember. Winchester LRM work very ver well in .300 Win Mag loads I use....better in fact than 215M

    I'm not so snobbish that i only shoot Lapua brass
    I use Lapua brass and Nosler brass mostly. I'm not adverse to trying others, though. Starline and PPU have great reviews. A buddy of mine swears by PPU in 30-06. Winchester brass is pretty sorry in my opinion, though. I could never find 210M's. But there are plenty now. I'm stocking up. By the time I retire in a few years, few meaning 3 years, I want 100lbs of powder on the bench and 10,000 primers...at least. Then, I won't need much for a very long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester896 View Post
    I always strive for single digit standard deviation (SD) I think it might be rather hard to get single digit extreme spreeds (ES). Although both contribute very much to accuracy they do not have to be single digit to be accurate.

    I think the only GMM primer that was hard to get was 215M...i never had trouble getting 210M or maybe my supply was so strong I was able to wait it out...can't remember. Winchester LRM work very ver well in .300 Win Mag loads I use....better in fact than 215M

    I'm not so snobbish that i only shoot Lapua brass
    Oh, we shoot lots of other brass in our ARs, sporter hunting rifles, and pistols. But I've worked up loads and reloaded for several NRA national champions. Precision long range work and F-Class need a shot to shot consistency that is hard to get with other brands of brass. Some guys do get it but they end up working hard for it: neck turning, annealing, weight sorting, capacity sorting, etc. That's waaaay to much work for us. We save all that extra work and just use Lapua.
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter22 View Post
    I use Lapua brass and Nosler brass mostly. I'm not adverse to trying others, though. Starline and PPU have great reviews. A buddy of mine swears by PPU in 30-06. Winchester brass is pretty sorry in my opinion, though. I could never find 210M's. But there are plenty now. I'm stocking up. By the time I retire in a few years, few meaning 3 years, I want 100lbs of powder on the bench and 10,000 primers...at least. Then, I won't need much for a very long time.
    I've used Nosler brass in 25-06 and .300 Win Mag. Necks split in a few firings in 25-06 and primer pockets loosened in a couple firings in .300 WM. Tried a second Nosler batch in .300 WM with extra care to keep pressures at or below SAAMI specs. Same deal - loose primer pockets in 2-3 firings. Sprang for Norma brass for the rest of the life of that barrel, but gotta admit, looking forward to being able to rebarrel that one in a cartridge for which Lapua makes brass.

    The next couple rebarrel projects will probably be .260 Remington. We expect 3000 rounds of barrel life and brass life of 10-15 rounds with loads tuned for 1000 yards. Unlike the 6.5 CM, the .260 Rem has enough case capacity to use H4831 with the highest BC bullets, which will improve velocities in our 30" barrels without burning out the throats as quickly as H4350. Cartridges like the .300 WM and 25-06 are great for hunting, but barrels sour after 1500 rounds or so, not what you want for long range competition or the volumes of practice we like.
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilDrummerBoy View Post
    Oh, we shoot lots of other brass in our ARs, sporter hunting rifles, and pistols. But I've worked up loads and reloaded for several NRA national champions. Precision long range work and F-Class need a shot to shot consistency that is hard to get with other brands of brass. Some guys do get it but they end up working hard for it: neck turning, annealing, weight sorting, capacity sorting, etc. That's waaaay to much work for us. We save all that extra work and just use Lapua.
    Not sure what Jester is doing, but I strive for quality components for extremely accurate hunting loads. No desire for shooting competition these days. I think you get what you pay for, for the most part, when it comes to accuracy (rifles, optics, ammo). .38 groups with the 30-06 at 100 yards, and 1.5" or so at 300 yards is doing pretty good for me. If I get that 6.5 Creedmoor, I might need that or better on some really long roads for coyotes, which will be fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilDrummerBoy View Post
    I've used Nosler brass in 25-06 and .300 Win Mag. Necks split in a few firings in 25-06 and primer pockets loosened in a couple firings in .300 WM. Tried a second Nosler batch in .300 WM with extra care to keep pressures at or below SAAMI specs. Same deal - loose primer pockets in 2-3 firings. Sprang for Norma brass for the rest of the life of that barrel, but gotta admit, looking forward to being able to rebarrel that one in a cartridge for which Lapua makes brass.

    The next couple rebarrel projects will probably be .260 Remington. We expect 3000 rounds of barrel life and brass life of 10-15 rounds with loads tuned for 1000 yards. Unlike the 6.5 CM, the .260 Rem has enough case capacity to use H4831 with the highest BC bullets, which will improve velocities in our 30" barrels without burning out the throats as quickly as H4350. Cartridges like the .300 WM and 25-06 are great for hunting, but barrels sour after 1500 rounds or so, not what you want for long range competition or the volumes of practice we like.
    Dang...we posted at the same time haha. Right. If you saw from another post, I'm working on my 308. I think I picked the wrong guy to do the work. He totally screwed up the chamber on a brand new Bartlien barrel. Now, after "making that right," which I have to check, he says there is a primary extraction problem. I'm inclined to believe that after a little light reading, but I already know it goes back to work not done in the first place. Maybe he thought I would not check or something...pffft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter22 View Post
    I want 100lbs of powder on the bench and 10,000 primers...at least.
    it might scare you around here ...I think between BL-C(2) and CF223 I can come to half of your powder needs. If you add AutoComp and CFE Pistol I may have you covered if this catches it will go quick. I think I have 7-8K #41s I keep a bunch of 210M, 215s...better stop now

    Quote Originally Posted by LilDrummerBoy View Post
    Some guys do get it but they end up working hard for it: neck turning, annealing, weight sorting, capacity sorting, etc. That's waaaay to much work for us.
    I have neck turned the LC brass I have necked down to .260 once. I also annealed it every couple of firings...no big deal...have the equipment. I bet it has been loaded 6 times as .260 and I'm sure more than twice as .308 before that. I have stopped using them, but I wonder how many more times I could load it...I do run into 1 here and there with a loose primer pocket...scrap bucket is half full of all kinds. I do not weight sort, capacity sort, ojive sort, or bullet weight sort. Some days I enjoy under .25...most days I can enjoy under .5 MOA @ 1K...I'm happy. There is a couple C Lapua .260 cases here but I bet you can find close to 1K Remington new cases too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter22 View Post
    Not sure what Jester is doing
    I use:
    .223 LC for accuracy loads
    .223 LC for hunting loads
    .223 mixed for range practice drills...don't pick it up in most cases
    .25-06 Hornady, Winchester...Mostly Hornady
    .260 Currently Remington
    .270 Winchester
    .308 LC LR...some LC Match
    .300BLK LC
    .300 Win Mag Winchester
    That Is what I shoot most.
    Last edited by Jester896; 12-17-2018 at 09:41 PM.
    Yippee Ki Yay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester896 View Post
    it might scare you around here ...I think between BL-C(2) and CF223 I can come to half of your powder needs. If you add AutoComp and CFE Pistol I may have you covered if this catches it will go quick. I think I have 7-8K #41s I keep a bunch of 210M, 215s...better stop now

    I use:
    .223 LC for accuracy loads
    .223 LC for hunting loads
    .223 mixed for range practice drills...don't pick it up in most cases
    .

    Ha,ha,ha,ha...NICE!!! I don't own any 223's, but I have put a ton of 223's down range in the last 26 years . After carrying one and literally living with it for so long at times, I don't have any desire to own one right now. Might need one later for hogs, though.

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    Hogs is about all I use mine for...might for deer this year too if I go

    left a few off my list
    .270WSM Winchester
    6.5WSM Norma
    Yippee Ki Yay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester896 View Post
    I use:
    .223 LC for accuracy loads
    .223 LC for hunting loads
    Interesting. I was gifted over 1000 same lot Lake City cases that looks better than the usual mixed lot stuff, and I'm tempted to use it to try and develop an accurate 90 grain load for 1000 yard F-Class. Mostly, because 90 grain loads in .223 tend to be on the higher pressure side and cases don't last so long. Feeding Laupa when case life is short sounds a bit spendy. Maybe we'll try the LC brass first and see what kind of SDs and accuracy we get. Where are you shooting 1000 yards in SC?
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    i'm not sure there is a suitable twist rate to run 90gr in a .223...maybe a .224 Valkyrie and 1K. A fella I knows 6 or 7 year old daughter shoot he Valkyrie out to 1200 i think.

    About the longest I have had OK success with shooting .223 is about 800...most of the time it is only 4-600...never tried 1K

    I think the case capacity on the LC is going to be close to the Lapua...ya might want to try something else

    I'm not in SC
    Yippee Ki Yay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester896 View Post
    i'm not sure there is a suitable twist rate to run 90gr in a .223...maybe a .224 Valkyrie and 1K. A fella I knows 6 or 7 year old daughter shoot he Valkyrie out to 1200 i think.

    About the longest I have had OK success with shooting .223 is about 800...most of the time it is only 4-600...never tried 1K

    I think the case capacity on the LC is going to be close to the Lapua...ya might want to try something else

    I'm not in SC
    F-Class shooters routinely shoot 90 grain bullets from .223s to 1000 yards from 1 in 7" twist barrels. They can push them to 2700-2800 fps in 30" barrels. The bullets are loaded long (2.5-2.6" OAL) to provide additional case capacity. This combo is the lightest recoiling load (and easiest on barrel life) to do reasonably at 1000 yards. Sierra and Berger make appropriate 90 grain bullets, and Hornady has an 88 grain ELD.

    The shooters I coach and load for have won 600 yard matches with the 80 SMK and are interested in stretching distances to 800-1000 yards. New cartridges are likely in their futures, but they want to see how the .223s do before deciding.
    “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" - The Messiah

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    silly me... you said F-Class and I am thinking Service Rifle...I made a DMR/Recon cross that I use to play with and I hunt with an HBAR Match
    Yippee Ki Yay

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